"Yeshua nailed our SINS to the Tree. He did NOT, I repeat did NOT nail the Tanakh "Old Testament" commandments to it. Paul and the first believers AFTER Yeshua left CONTINUED being observant, and even in his death and resurrection, Yeshua OBSERVED the LAW, he went into the grave before the sabbath started..., and didn't come out of it until AFTER the sabbath rest!! He did this because he was being obedient to HIS Father's commandments!
To quote scripture, Yeshua himself said, 'I come NOT to destroy, 'NOT TO DESTROY' but to fulfill!' That means complete, like making a blanket..., you don't make a blanket then throw it away!!!!"

That is a beautiful picture of the truth.

Comment and Reply:

Derek:
Here's a thought. Jesus Christ came to fulfil the O.T. writings, both the law and the prophets. He fulfilled everything in the law (which only He could do) and also every prophecy that he was supposed to fulfil. Then He said "it is finished" and set us free from the letter of the law. His death ended the old covenant (as a covenant can only be broken by death) and by His blood we enter into a new and better covenant. If we go back under the old covenant we trample the blood of the new covenant underfoot. Think about it. Christ did not come to "renew" the old covenant like some say out of speculation and faulty "revelations" about the true meaning of the greek, He came to bring a new and everlasting covenant that doesn't depend on man's righteousness but gives us access to God's righteousness through the blood of Jesus Christ the Perfect Lamb. The old covenant feeds the flesh/pride/ego/self-righteousness, but the new covenant requires us to come broken and depend on the Lord for everything because there is nothing we can do in the flesh to be righteous. We can only be righteous through faith, or through the Spirit of God. Old covenant righteousness in the flesh = dung according to the Holy Spirit through Paul, compared to the new covenant righteousness through faith in Christ Jesus who is the fulfilment of the old and beginning of the new. Selah.

Zack:
he did not fulfill every prophecy in the Tanakh. There are still many many prophecies to be fulfilled. Examples include Zechariah 12-14, large parts of Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, and a few in other places.

"Christ did not come to "renew" the old covenant like some say out of speculation and faulty "revelations" about the true meaning of the greek"

First off Hebrews 8 is a direct quote from Jeremiah 31. And since even your mentor has publicly stated that greek is a spartan language that is completely faulty, we must take such a pivotal verse from the Hebrew it came from.

And if we read closely the whole chapter in context we will realize that this is talking about a future covenant that is to come, that this covenant is ready to pass away. For the time is near when all things will come to an end. Since Hebrews was written after pentecost we know that all things have come to pass till the rejoining of Yeshua to his people that is to come.

The perpetual lamb was a promise of this covenant, ie the picture of Abraham on the mountain and the lamb was provided.

Also I would like to point out that the spirit is in me, I live by the grace of God. I do not claim that special revelation came to me about any of this. I receive my understanding by diligent meditation of scripture. I also am not the one judging another man to heaven or hell. And because of this thing you have done, you have brought Yeshua into the abyss.

I have never stated that my salvation is based on my righteousness, but as a child born of God, I am compelled to follow the teaching and instruction that he has given me. I have asked repeatedly, but I will ask again; What part of the law is it that will lead to my destruction. What is it that I am following that is self righteousness? Explain to my how anything commanded by God could be a sin

The real subject

Alright, so everything is getting muddled down and looking at trailing subjects. Lets get back to reality. Does the Torah hold weight in your life? Do you have to follow it? Can you pick and chose what to follow? Did Yeshua do away with the Torah and the Prophets? Did he in any way even allude to not requiring strict observance to the Torah?

I think you all know my answer. But if I am wrong please correct me. Also just so everyone is quite aware, You can not loose your salvation by following scripture. I am still under grace, I am not under the law, but because I am a follower of YHVH I am compelled to follow what he has commanded me to follow.

As for the person who made a judgment on the law and informed me that I have lost my salvation by following the Torah, I pray that the Lord of Hosts will show you mercy and bring you to repentance in that area. That is clear scripture, you cannot judge a person, or your judgment will be upon you without the mercy of God.

And again, as for those of you who are not feeding, clothing, and ministering to the sick and dying, Yeshua called you a goat, read it for yourself.

Shalom,

Zack

Quick thought

What about in James 2 when it says


²¹Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? ²²Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? ²³And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."^[g] And he was called the friend of God. ²⁴You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

So if our Justification comes through our works because we have faith, what works is it that justifies us? Is it not following the commands given to us by God? And Yeshua went specificly into the fact that if you do not feed the hungry, cloth the naked, ect, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven?

Okay Here are some Pearls

Many people say that the law is done away with. If you ask "Well what about the ten commandments?" they normally say, "That is the moral law, you still have to keep that". Please will someone show me in scripture where you find this? Torah is God's teaching and instruction. Yeshua (Jesus) sat with Moses for 80 days on Mount Horeb and taught him the Law. Every last one of the 613 commandments in the Torah is a subsection to the Ten Commandments. If you take a step back from the Greek thought you have been brought up in and think about it, The Ten Commandments are the ten types of laws and even the Ten Commandments can be boiled down to two.

Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, strength. And where do you think this is in the bible? Well yes Yeshua did quote it. It was a quote, almost everything that Yeshua said was a quote. This one is from Deuteronomy 6:4&5 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength." This is the greatest command. The second is like it Love your neighbor as yourself.

If you look at the Ten Commandments you will see that they are ten ways to love the Lord or to love your neighbor. If you look at all 613 commandments in Torah, you will see that they are 613 ways to carry out one of the ten commandments.

I challenge anyone, get your pastors and teachers to help you, to find me one thing in the Torah that has been done away with. Yeshua commanded you at least once to keep every single part of Torah, and his diciples reinforced them as well.

Also John 1:1-14 the word "word" here means written instructions. Yeshua is the Torah made flesh. Even with how lacking Greek is if you do a real bible study on this section of scripture you can not honestly walk away saying that Yeshua is done away with. Because my friends when you say that Torah is no more you are saying that Yeshua is no more, and that is a sad state to be in.

And for the last point. Rabbi Shaul, commonly refered to as Paul was the Attorney General of Israel. He was a disciple of Gamliel, he was blameless in Torah and in the Talmud. The Talmud or oral tradition was passed down from the time of Moses and before, really since Adam, and is the rulings on the Torah. It gives us silly things like you can't have a cheese burger, and even more so you can't have meat and dairy within 48 minutes of eachother, or even have meat and dairy in the same fridge. This is a group of rullings on do not boil a kid in it's mother's milk. So we see how rediculous this rullings become. This Oral Tradition or ORAL LAW, is what Rabbi Shaul is speaking of in Roman's and Galatians that is a curse and self-righteousness.

For these rullings are the actual original sin. You see the original sin was Adam took what God said as a commandment and made it even harder. God told Adam, do not eat of the tree of good and evil. What did he tell his wife? Do not touch that tree. So when the serpent came, this is why he asked, "Did God really tell you, Eve, not to touch the tree." Eve was decieved because she did not know, and infact that is not what God had told her.

I could go on, but I will leave you with this for now, this should be enough to keep up discussion for a few days

Comments and Replies:

Anonymous rights:

Romans 7
1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

Nathan writes:
Though we are dead to the Torah, we should still continue to do our best to follow Torah. Why? Because Torah is good! Many people feel as if the law is bad, but it is not bad--because it shows us our sin. It does not make us sin, but rather our sinful nature makes us sin.

Yeshua did get rid of the punishments for sins, did He not? For instance, we no longer stone adulterers or homosexuals (thank goodness...) but rather we are to show them the grace that Yeshua showed. Of course, getting rid of the punishment does not mean that the commandments to not engage in adultery or homosexuality are not still valid--rather we are to share with those the freedom found in Messiah Yeshua.

Zack writes:

Yeshua took our punishment for sin. When you commit adultery, fornication, homosexuality, or any other perversion/sin unto death, Yeshua is perpetually killed for you. And the scriptures are also very clear that anyone who lives in these sins will not inherit the kingdom of heaven and be thrown into the lake of fire.

As far as us, if you have not committed any perverse thought or act in your life you can cast the first stone to physically kill them. The fact is we have all committed sins unto death, and it is only by the blood of the perpetual lamb that we are saved from our just deserve.

So you are right about how we are to treat people, not because the punishment is different, or removed, but because God has forgiven us and we are obligated to forgive others for what they do against us. IE the servant who owed his master 10 lifetimes of debt, was forgiven, but would not forgive a days wages from his brother.

PS the Talmud is the oral traditions that the Jew's follow and actually hold as more important than Torah it's self.

Just two little things quickly

That law did not originate but only regulated the already existing custom of slavery ( Exd 21:20,21,26,27; Lev 25:44-46; Jos 9:6-27). Slavery was however--authorized; it was regulated by the Yovel--the jubilee. This set each man woman and child free--or provided the possibility to be free.

Multiple wives--BAD IDEA--ie Killed Solomons kingdom--but was never particularly forbidden. Yet Yeshua pointed out
G-ds plan was one woman-and one man--two made into one.
Abraham and Sarah is the model. One man one woman--this is Torah's standard--yet it made provision for the hardness of man's heart--as it always does.

So the truth is that NO PART, not one jot or tittle are not valid today. All of the Torah is still valid and we must follow it

Clarification on the difference between the Torah and the Talmud (oral tradition)

In posting this on blogger I added in the arguments brought by others as they do well to fight against the heresy that I was believing.

I will now try and clarify a point that has been lost to the Greek Church. Hopefully you will not reject what I say; instead hopefully you will study for yourself and do research yourself. Do not take the words of a man that says that I am wrong, there is no oral tradition. For anyone who would even imagine saying that is deceived.

Just so you know there are several different laws. There is the Torah, which is commanded by all people to be followed for all time. It was given to us by Moses, who was taught for 80 days on Mt Horeb by Yeshua himself. So because we know that Moses was a Prophet of God, who learned physically directly from God himself, we know that nothing he gave us would in and of itself be a curse. The Torah (God's teaching and instruction) was not, is not, and never will be a curse. The Torah is how we are supposed to live, if we are to be like Christ. Because as we all hopefully know Yeshua came to earth as a Jew, from the tribe of Judah, he was a teacher of the law, in fact he started middrashing in the Temple with other Rabbi's at the age of 12 at his bar mitzvah. So if our savior was without sin, how is it he kept the whole law, but yet was not cursed by it?

The "law" that Rabbi Shaul (Paul) speaks of in Romans, Galatians, and elsewhere, is now commonly referred to as the Talmud. This collection of rulings on the Torah is actually what people followed in the 1st century instead of the Torah. Stuff like no cheese burgers, or no lighting candles on the Shabbat, ridiculous self righteous acts. This self righteousness is the curse that Rabbi Shaul is speaking of, because our righteousness is filthy rags. And as in Matthew 5:20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.” So what we see if we understand what the history is that unless your righteousness is even greater than all of the scribes and Pharisees self-righteousness, you have no chance at being in the Kingdom of heaven. Two verses back Yeshua himself states clearer than you can ever imagine that 17"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. WOW. If you do not know what jot’s and tittle’s are, they are the smallest marks in the language, the most insignificant parts like “’;.,” so if punctuations are not even possibly removed how much more assured are we that things like eating unclean food, or keeping the Shabbat (Sabbath) that the Lord our King gave us as direct commands?

And just so we are clear, to whoever wants to answer. If the Torah is a curse, what are the commands that we being under “Grace” are to follow?

BTW just so we all understand Grace = Favor. We have the favor of the Lord because we are covered in the blood of the Sacrificial Lamb. We still have to follow the teachings and instructions of our King.

Further posts to come

Comments and Responses:

Derek:
So because we know that Moses was a Prophet of God, who learned physically directly from God himself, we know that nothing he gave us would in and of itself be a curse. The Torah (God's teaching and instruction) was not, is not, and never will be a curse.

Gal 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

The Bible never says that the law is a curse. Galatians says "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:" and quotes the curse he (Paul by the H.S.) is referring to from Deut 27:26 "Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them."

The "law" that Rabbi Shaul (Paul) speaks of in Romans, Galatians, and elsewhere, is now commonly referred to as the Talmud.

As you can see from the above passage, the Law that Paul is referring to can only be the Torah because he uses a curse from the Torah that refers to itself as "this law." What you are trying to say is that Paul meant 'As many as are under the works of the Talmud are under a curse for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.' Now that makes no sense. Why would Paul bring up a curse from the Torah that warns us to keep every commandment therein to defend against the Talmud?

You must understand the function of the Law as recorded in Galatians and elsewhere: Gal 3:24-25 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

It is silly to think that Paul is referring to the Talmud when he says Law, there are a LOT of proof passages why this cant be so, and I have given one. Another is Gal 4:21ff "21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman." FOR IS IS WRITTEN (in Gen 16:15; 21:2,9). Does this sound like the Talmud that Paul calls the "law" in which it is written?

Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the Law?

Travis:
Interesting... it's now sounding like the Bible is contradicting itself then, because Paul seems to be saying that those who are of the works of the law are under a curse, and Jesus says: 'whoever breaks one of the leasts of these commands (in the law) and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.' Jesus also said in the verses before that until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest stroke will pass away from the law. To my knowledge, heaven and earth are still here.

So who is right? Paul, who says we are not under law but under grace (Rom. 6:14... finally found the verse) or Jesus, who says if we break the least of the commands of the law will be least? Well, I would certainly take Jesus' word over Paul's, because Jesus is God. So if Paul is contradicting the words of Jesus, I don't want to listen to him anymore. I might as well throw out his letters from my Bible. Jesus has more authority than Paul.

Another thing. Why, if Paul taught that the law is done away with, that we don't need to obey Torah, would he turn around and call it 'holy', and the commandment holy, just and good (Rom. 7:12)? Why would God do away with something holy? Why would God say we don't need to uphold what is considered holy, just, and good?

Has the word of God turn schitzo? If God intended to do away with the law, why would he write things like these in His Word?

Isaiah 8:20 - To the law and to the testimony (the Torah)! If they do not speak according to this word, there will be no dawn for them.

Isaiah 65:3-5 - These people continually provoke Me to My face, sacrificing in gardens, burning incense on bricks, sitting among the graves, spending nights in secret places, eating swine's flesh, and putting polluted broth in their bowls. They say: Keep to yourself, don't come near me, for I am too holy for you! These practices are smoke in My nostrils, a fire that burns all day long. (Interesting to note that each of those practices listed are considered practices of paganism and that they provoke the LORD and are smoke in His nostrils)

Isaiah 66:17 - "Those who dedicate and purify themselves to enter the groves following their leader, eating meat from pigs, vermin, and rats, will perish together." This is the LORD's declaration. (Note that this is an end time prophecy.)

1 John 5:3 - For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden... (Hmm... His commands are not a burden... interesting that John was not specific which commands he was talking about... seems like a general statement to me)

1 John 3:4 - Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is breaking the law. (Why would John connect sinning with law breaking if the law was done away with?)

This is what we need to conclude: either Paul is contradicting everyone else (worst of all, Jesus) and we need to disregard all of his writings, or Paul is in harmony with everyone else and when Paul makes statements like in Gal. 3:10 and Rom. 6:14, they need to be seen in a different context than what we are putting it in.

Zack:
Do I believe in works based doctrine? No. Do I believe that if you reject Torah you're gambling with your salvation yes. Do I think that if you don't follow all of Torah you cannot enter heaven? No, but you defiantly will be the least. Do I believe as a child of Israel, believing in the God of my father's Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, I am compelled to follow all of the instructions that my Lord and King have given me? YES, most defiantly YES. Do I believe that if you love YHVH you will obey all he commands? Well that's what he said, so make up your mind for yourself.

Do I think that if you don't worship the way I do you're going to hell? No, and even if I could find reason, I wouldn't, it's not my place, I am compelled to warn you that the whole Torah is still valid, but am not going to judge you to heaven or hell.

I hope this clears everything up. If you want to walk in power, follow God's commands.

Middrashing

Well I had a very long but great night Saturday. The afternoon started with a wedding, got to see lots of old friends and my former church family. Then I had a wonderful Shabbat service. After the service I went to a birthday party.

It was good seeing everyone again. I had lots of friends at the party, and then I got into a middrash (theological debate). It was a little frustrating that I didn't get to speak much and it was more me being preached at than an open debate, but I did get to briefly share my view on the topic at hand. Which was basically new covenant vs. old covenant, or my point of view which is the same covenant that has become full because the promised sacrifice has been provided for.

The problem is that all copies of any letter of the new Brit Haddash (new testament) are from the 3rd century at the oldest and are in Koni Greek which is a ridiculous language, and almost impossible to know without any reasonable doubt that you are getting the correct meaning of the word. For example, the word LAW. One word in Greek, 17 in Hebrew. This of course also includes words like teaching, instruction, oral tradition, command precept....the list goes on.

So because I know that I have an unchanging God. We know that there are three fasets of him, described as Elohim, or a plurality of oneness. I know that the Torah and the Prophets is for sure, 100% totally right on, because well it's in the same original language, that has been preserved since it was written. Hebrew is the perfect language. You can use the exact word to convey what you intend and it is extremely hard to misunderstand what you said.

To bad we don't have the original Greek manuscripts that the 12 talmudium wrote. Rabbi Shaul's writings would have been nice at least. If we had them in Hebrew there wouldn't be near as much fighting about books like Roman's or Galatians.

Anyway, I did have a great time though. God provided much needed sharpening, I am glad that I got to have the experience. To everyone out there, I love you and Shalom.

Shut up about the devil

Okay, so we all claim to know that this greedy, proud, angel that had a lust for power rebelled against God. He lost and got kicked out of heaven with all the angels he tricked into following him. He got booted out of the realm of Heaven and could only go as far as the Garden of Eden. While he was there he tricked Eve into bearing the knowledge of Good and Evil, and Adam followed his wife and took on the knowledge of Good and Evil. When this happened the keys of dominion were taken away from Adam and given to this deceitful angel. This angel had power over man and the right to accuse him. As we see in the book of Job. But God manifest himself in human form and was wrongly accused by satan and became our sacrifice on the tree. When this happened the keys of dominion over everything, including life and death were taken from satan by the son of man.

We are dead to ourselves and he that has dominion over all things is alive in us. So just seal your lip. The only way that anything has dominion over you is if you let it by speaking or planting death into your life. If God be for you who can be against you? He has victory over all, so nothing can come against you oh Saint and Prince of the Kingdom.

Start acting like the brother of Messiah, start acting like a child of God. Tell the accuser to kiss the sole of you foot cause he doesn’t even have the right to accuse you anymore. There is nothing that a demon or the devil can do to you...unless you speak that power to him.

So in summary, you are smart, not stupid. You are an amazing creation of the ever living God, you are beautiful even as he is beautiful, you are holy as he is holy, and you have nothing missing nothing broken. You were made in Elohim's image, if you speak against that you spit on the face of the King of Kings.

As I said, "Shut up about the devil". He's not doing anything in your life. He can't do anything in your life. His power really, truly, for all time was stripped from him on Calvary. The only thing he can do is lay in wait for you to say "I'm stupid", or any other thing against yourself, and when you do, you have spoken his power over your life so just stop.