Clarification on the difference between the Torah and the Talmud (oral tradition)
In posting this on blogger I added in the arguments brought by others as they do well to fight against the heresy that I was believing.
I will now try and clarify a point that has been lost to the Greek Church. Hopefully you will not reject what I say; instead hopefully you will study for yourself and do research yourself. Do not take the words of a man that says that I am wrong, there is no oral tradition. For anyone who would even imagine saying that is deceived.
Just so you know there are several different laws. There is the Torah, which is commanded by all people to be followed for all time. It was given to us by Moses, who was taught for 80 days on Mt Horeb by Yeshua himself. So because we know that Moses was a Prophet of God, who learned physically directly from God himself, we know that nothing he gave us would in and of itself be a curse. The Torah (God's teaching and instruction) was not, is not, and never will be a curse. The Torah is how we are supposed to live, if we are to be like Christ. Because as we all hopefully know Yeshua came to earth as a Jew, from the tribe of Judah, he was a teacher of the law, in fact he started middrashing in the Temple with other Rabbi's at the age of 12 at his bar mitzvah. So if our savior was without sin, how is it he kept the whole law, but yet was not cursed by it?
The "law" that Rabbi Shaul (Paul) speaks of in Romans, Galatians, and elsewhere, is now commonly referred to as the Talmud. This collection of rulings on the Torah is actually what people followed in the 1st century instead of the Torah. Stuff like no cheese burgers, or no lighting candles on the Shabbat, ridiculous self righteous acts. This self righteousness is the curse that Rabbi Shaul is speaking of, because our righteousness is filthy rags. And as in Matthew 5:20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.” So what we see if we understand what the history is that unless your righteousness is even greater than all of the scribes and Pharisees self-righteousness, you have no chance at being in the Kingdom of heaven. Two verses back Yeshua himself states clearer than you can ever imagine that 17"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. WOW. If you do not know what jot’s and tittle’s are, they are the smallest marks in the language, the most insignificant parts like “’;.,” so if punctuations are not even possibly removed how much more assured are we that things like eating unclean food, or keeping the Shabbat (Sabbath) that the Lord our King gave us as direct commands?
And just so we are clear, to whoever wants to answer. If the Torah is a curse, what are the commands that we being under “Grace” are to follow?
BTW just so we all understand Grace = Favor. We have the favor of the Lord because we are covered in the blood of the Sacrificial Lamb. We still have to follow the teachings and instructions of our King.
Further posts to come
Comments and Responses:
Derek:
So because we know that Moses was a Prophet of God, who learned physically directly from God himself, we know that nothing he gave us would in and of itself be a curse. The Torah (God's teaching and instruction) was not, is not, and never will be a curse.
Gal 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
The Bible never says that the law is a curse. Galatians says "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:" and quotes the curse he (Paul by the H.S.) is referring to from Deut 27:26 "Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them."
The "law" that Rabbi Shaul (Paul) speaks of in Romans, Galatians, and elsewhere, is now commonly referred to as the Talmud.
As you can see from the above passage, the Law that Paul is referring to can only be the Torah because he uses a curse from the Torah that refers to itself as "this law." What you are trying to say is that Paul meant 'As many as are under the works of the Talmud are under a curse for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.' Now that makes no sense. Why would Paul bring up a curse from the Torah that warns us to keep every commandment therein to defend against the Talmud?
You must understand the function of the Law as recorded in Galatians and elsewhere: Gal 3:24-25 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
It is silly to think that Paul is referring to the Talmud when he says Law, there are a LOT of proof passages why this cant be so, and I have given one. Another is Gal 4:21ff "21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman." FOR IS IS WRITTEN (in Gen 16:15; 21:2,9). Does this sound like the Talmud that Paul calls the "law" in which it is written?
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the Law?
Travis:
Interesting... it's now sounding like the Bible is contradicting itself then, because Paul seems to be saying that those who are of the works of the law are under a curse, and Jesus says: 'whoever breaks one of the leasts of these commands (in the law) and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.' Jesus also said in the verses before that until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest stroke will pass away from the law. To my knowledge, heaven and earth are still here.
So who is right? Paul, who says we are not under law but under grace (Rom. 6:14... finally found the verse) or Jesus, who says if we break the least of the commands of the law will be least? Well, I would certainly take Jesus' word over Paul's, because Jesus is God. So if Paul is contradicting the words of Jesus, I don't want to listen to him anymore. I might as well throw out his letters from my Bible. Jesus has more authority than Paul.
Another thing. Why, if Paul taught that the law is done away with, that we don't need to obey Torah, would he turn around and call it 'holy', and the commandment holy, just and good (Rom. 7:12)? Why would God do away with something holy? Why would God say we don't need to uphold what is considered holy, just, and good?
Has the word of God turn schitzo? If God intended to do away with the law, why would he write things like these in His Word?
Isaiah 8:20 - To the law and to the testimony (the Torah)! If they do not speak according to this word, there will be no dawn for them.
Isaiah 65:3-5 - These people continually provoke Me to My face, sacrificing in gardens, burning incense on bricks, sitting among the graves, spending nights in secret places, eating swine's flesh, and putting polluted broth in their bowls. They say: Keep to yourself, don't come near me, for I am too holy for you! These practices are smoke in My nostrils, a fire that burns all day long. (Interesting to note that each of those practices listed are considered practices of paganism and that they provoke the LORD and are smoke in His nostrils)
Isaiah 66:17 - "Those who dedicate and purify themselves to enter the groves following their leader, eating meat from pigs, vermin, and rats, will perish together." This is the LORD's declaration. (Note that this is an end time prophecy.)
1 John 5:3 - For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden... (Hmm... His commands are not a burden... interesting that John was not specific which commands he was talking about... seems like a general statement to me)
1 John 3:4 - Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is breaking the law. (Why would John connect sinning with law breaking if the law was done away with?)
This is what we need to conclude: either Paul is contradicting everyone else (worst of all, Jesus) and we need to disregard all of his writings, or Paul is in harmony with everyone else and when Paul makes statements like in Gal. 3:10 and Rom. 6:14, they need to be seen in a different context than what we are putting it in.
Zack:
Do I believe in works based doctrine? No. Do I believe that if you reject Torah you're gambling with your salvation yes. Do I think that if you don't follow all of Torah you cannot enter heaven? No, but you defiantly will be the least. Do I believe as a child of Israel, believing in the God of my father's Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, I am compelled to follow all of the instructions that my Lord and King have given me? YES, most defiantly YES. Do I believe that if you love YHVH you will obey all he commands? Well that's what he said, so make up your mind for yourself.
Do I think that if you don't worship the way I do you're going to hell? No, and even if I could find reason, I wouldn't, it's not my place, I am compelled to warn you that the whole Torah is still valid, but am not going to judge you to heaven or hell.
I hope this clears everything up. If you want to walk in power, follow God's commands.
I will now try and clarify a point that has been lost to the Greek Church. Hopefully you will not reject what I say; instead hopefully you will study for yourself and do research yourself. Do not take the words of a man that says that I am wrong, there is no oral tradition. For anyone who would even imagine saying that is deceived.
Just so you know there are several different laws. There is the Torah, which is commanded by all people to be followed for all time. It was given to us by Moses, who was taught for 80 days on Mt Horeb by Yeshua himself. So because we know that Moses was a Prophet of God, who learned physically directly from God himself, we know that nothing he gave us would in and of itself be a curse. The Torah (God's teaching and instruction) was not, is not, and never will be a curse. The Torah is how we are supposed to live, if we are to be like Christ. Because as we all hopefully know Yeshua came to earth as a Jew, from the tribe of Judah, he was a teacher of the law, in fact he started middrashing in the Temple with other Rabbi's at the age of 12 at his bar mitzvah. So if our savior was without sin, how is it he kept the whole law, but yet was not cursed by it?
The "law" that Rabbi Shaul (Paul) speaks of in Romans, Galatians, and elsewhere, is now commonly referred to as the Talmud. This collection of rulings on the Torah is actually what people followed in the 1st century instead of the Torah. Stuff like no cheese burgers, or no lighting candles on the Shabbat, ridiculous self righteous acts. This self righteousness is the curse that Rabbi Shaul is speaking of, because our righteousness is filthy rags. And as in Matthew 5:20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.” So what we see if we understand what the history is that unless your righteousness is even greater than all of the scribes and Pharisees self-righteousness, you have no chance at being in the Kingdom of heaven. Two verses back Yeshua himself states clearer than you can ever imagine that 17"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. WOW. If you do not know what jot’s and tittle’s are, they are the smallest marks in the language, the most insignificant parts like “’;.,” so if punctuations are not even possibly removed how much more assured are we that things like eating unclean food, or keeping the Shabbat (Sabbath) that the Lord our King gave us as direct commands?
And just so we are clear, to whoever wants to answer. If the Torah is a curse, what are the commands that we being under “Grace” are to follow?
BTW just so we all understand Grace = Favor. We have the favor of the Lord because we are covered in the blood of the Sacrificial Lamb. We still have to follow the teachings and instructions of our King.
Further posts to come
Comments and Responses:
Derek:
So because we know that Moses was a Prophet of God, who learned physically directly from God himself, we know that nothing he gave us would in and of itself be a curse. The Torah (God's teaching and instruction) was not, is not, and never will be a curse.
Gal 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
The Bible never says that the law is a curse. Galatians says "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:" and quotes the curse he (Paul by the H.S.) is referring to from Deut 27:26 "Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them."
The "law" that Rabbi Shaul (Paul) speaks of in Romans, Galatians, and elsewhere, is now commonly referred to as the Talmud.
As you can see from the above passage, the Law that Paul is referring to can only be the Torah because he uses a curse from the Torah that refers to itself as "this law." What you are trying to say is that Paul meant 'As many as are under the works of the Talmud are under a curse for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.' Now that makes no sense. Why would Paul bring up a curse from the Torah that warns us to keep every commandment therein to defend against the Talmud?
You must understand the function of the Law as recorded in Galatians and elsewhere: Gal 3:24-25 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
It is silly to think that Paul is referring to the Talmud when he says Law, there are a LOT of proof passages why this cant be so, and I have given one. Another is Gal 4:21ff "21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman." FOR IS IS WRITTEN (in Gen 16:15; 21:2,9). Does this sound like the Talmud that Paul calls the "law" in which it is written?
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the Law?
Travis:
Interesting... it's now sounding like the Bible is contradicting itself then, because Paul seems to be saying that those who are of the works of the law are under a curse, and Jesus says: 'whoever breaks one of the leasts of these commands (in the law) and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.' Jesus also said in the verses before that until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest stroke will pass away from the law. To my knowledge, heaven and earth are still here.
So who is right? Paul, who says we are not under law but under grace (Rom. 6:14... finally found the verse) or Jesus, who says if we break the least of the commands of the law will be least? Well, I would certainly take Jesus' word over Paul's, because Jesus is God. So if Paul is contradicting the words of Jesus, I don't want to listen to him anymore. I might as well throw out his letters from my Bible. Jesus has more authority than Paul.
Another thing. Why, if Paul taught that the law is done away with, that we don't need to obey Torah, would he turn around and call it 'holy', and the commandment holy, just and good (Rom. 7:12)? Why would God do away with something holy? Why would God say we don't need to uphold what is considered holy, just, and good?
Has the word of God turn schitzo? If God intended to do away with the law, why would he write things like these in His Word?
Isaiah 8:20 - To the law and to the testimony (the Torah)! If they do not speak according to this word, there will be no dawn for them.
Isaiah 65:3-5 - These people continually provoke Me to My face, sacrificing in gardens, burning incense on bricks, sitting among the graves, spending nights in secret places, eating swine's flesh, and putting polluted broth in their bowls. They say: Keep to yourself, don't come near me, for I am too holy for you! These practices are smoke in My nostrils, a fire that burns all day long. (Interesting to note that each of those practices listed are considered practices of paganism and that they provoke the LORD and are smoke in His nostrils)
Isaiah 66:17 - "Those who dedicate and purify themselves to enter the groves following their leader, eating meat from pigs, vermin, and rats, will perish together." This is the LORD's declaration. (Note that this is an end time prophecy.)
1 John 5:3 - For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden... (Hmm... His commands are not a burden... interesting that John was not specific which commands he was talking about... seems like a general statement to me)
1 John 3:4 - Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is breaking the law. (Why would John connect sinning with law breaking if the law was done away with?)
This is what we need to conclude: either Paul is contradicting everyone else (worst of all, Jesus) and we need to disregard all of his writings, or Paul is in harmony with everyone else and when Paul makes statements like in Gal. 3:10 and Rom. 6:14, they need to be seen in a different context than what we are putting it in.
Zack:
Do I believe in works based doctrine? No. Do I believe that if you reject Torah you're gambling with your salvation yes. Do I think that if you don't follow all of Torah you cannot enter heaven? No, but you defiantly will be the least. Do I believe as a child of Israel, believing in the God of my father's Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, I am compelled to follow all of the instructions that my Lord and King have given me? YES, most defiantly YES. Do I believe that if you love YHVH you will obey all he commands? Well that's what he said, so make up your mind for yourself.
Do I think that if you don't worship the way I do you're going to hell? No, and even if I could find reason, I wouldn't, it's not my place, I am compelled to warn you that the whole Torah is still valid, but am not going to judge you to heaven or hell.
I hope this clears everything up. If you want to walk in power, follow God's commands.
posted by Zack Dawley at 4:29 PM
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